These questions and (required) responses will serve as part of a continuing discussion when we move into our next play, Death of a Salesman. Pick ONE of these and post your response on the Blog. Be sure to indicate briefly at the onset which of the reflections you are doing so as to allow your classmates the opportunity to respond to you. If one of these seems to have been thoroughly covered during our Chalk Talk on Monday, then obviously you may want to choose another topic. The follow-up discussions will take place after Thanksgiving break. To that end, the more thought/detail you put into this now, the better record we'll have of our thinking now and the easier it will be to recall as we move forward.
1. What pattern repeats itself among generations? How are the sins and virtues of one generation played out in the next?
2. To what extent is Troy wrong about how American society has changed in his lifetime? To what extent is he right?
3. In what ways does Troy work towards the “American Dream”? What is Troy’s dream?
The "American Dream" is an ideal that many work towards, hoping for happiness and success. Troy works towards the "American Dream" by working as hard as he can at his job in order to support his family. He realizes that he is lucky to have a job, and works tirelessly in order to be promoted to a higher position. In this way, he works towards the "American Dream" by doing his best in order to be successful financially. Like he tells his son Cory, Troy doesn't have enough money for a TV, for he must fix the roof before winter comes. Troy is smart and knows how to prioritize his money, this is an important trait for people whom are trying to achieve the "American Dream. However, the "American Dream is not only about financial success, it is also about personal success. I don't believe Troy feels like he has personal success because he never got far in his baseball career. I believe that in order to make up for his lack of personal success, Troy is dedicated to providing the best lives he possibly can for him and his family. Troy also tries to balance his work and family with his own pleasures. Happiness is also an integral part of the "American Dream," for what is the point of success if you aren't happy? On Friday nights Troy has drinks and talks with Bono (his best friend) and on the weekend he goes down to the bar and listens to baseball, his old passion. While Troy may not be the most successful man, he knows how to work hard in order to get what he wants and needs for him and his family; this, I believe, is what it means to be an American.
ReplyDeleteWhat pattern repeats itself among generations? How are the sins and virtues of one generation played out in the next?
ReplyDeleteAs shown in Cory and Troy's relationship, often times a child bears similar qualities to his father or mother. Cory, like his father was very interested in a sport. Society did not permit either of them to develop their athletic passions. Troy was bruised from the racial discrimination he faced in baseball; as a result he did not let Cory play football. Rose, an outsider, is able to see that Troy does not want Cory to go through the same struggles as he faced. Ironically, Troy limiting his son’s football carrier and forcing him to work makes Cory even more similar to Troy. When Troy was younger, his father pushed him to work hard, Troy is doing the same to Cory. After Cory is no longer able to play football, because of Troy, Cory becomes more violent and confrontational (as presented in the scene with the baseball bat), like Troy.
Although some children produce similar characteristics as their parents, Lyons and Troy are polar opposites. Lyons is lazy and refuses to work as a garbage boy because he wants to pursue his passion in music. Troy gives Lyons ten dollars each week so he can support himself, yet he forces Cory to quit football to work at A and P.
---Daisy
To what extent is Troy wrong about how American society has changed in his lifetime? To what extent is he right?
ReplyDeleteBoth Cory and Troy share a common passion: baseball. In Act I Scene III they have a discussion, which turns into an argument about whether baseball has changed since Troy was a player. Cory believes that black baseball players today have as equal an opportunity as white players, but Troy disagrees. Troy's responses to Cory's points are false and irrational, like claiming that Roberto Clemente sits on the bench too much and how Hank Aaron is only used as a token, and not actually played. Cory easily refutes this point by stating the number of home runs Aaron hit this season. Troy wants to think that baseball has remained the same since his playing days in order to feel better about how he wasn't allowed to play in the major leagues solely because of his skin color. Cory views the present as changing; gradually allowing more blacks an equal opportunity to play professional sports. But Troy only sees the present as the hardships he faced in the past.
What pattern repeats itself among generations? How are the sins and virtues of one generation played out in the next?
ReplyDeleteCory and Troy both wish to be different from each other, however subconsciously Cory finds himself falling into the same patterns that Troy fell into. Troy became very emotionally invested in baseball, and when he was never able to make it to the big leagues due to the color of his skin, he was permanently scarred. He did not wish this pain on Cory, and tried to protect Cory from the treatment he recieved by banning sports in his life, however it had the opposite of the intended intent. Cory was emotionally invested in football, and when Troy constantly shut football out of Cory's life, instead of protecting Cory, he developed the same type of hurt that Troy received from baseball. There are also some differences between Cory and Troy. In the fight between the two, Cory had the oppurtunity to strike Troy with a baseball bat, however kept himself in check. The opposite is true in the fight between Troy and his father, in which Troy hit his father. Could this difference be symbolic in that the newer generation has more power (the bat) to defend itself against socitey and discrimination (Troy)?
There are three generations of Maxsons in Fences: Troy’s father, Troy, and Cory. The most evident trend in these three men, be it a sin, a virtue or both is their sense of responsibility. Troy says that his father “ain’t cared nothing about no kids” and that he was always cruel to them. However, the man “felt a responsibility” toward his kids, that “trapped” him on the farm. While his dedication to caring for his family could seem like an admirable quality, he is bitter about his life and lashes out at his children mercilessly. The kids were probably better off without him, as Troy finds out when he runs away in his teenage years and eventually finds a comfortable life with a family of his own and a steady job. His father offered him just enough to keep him alive, but never any love or emotional support. This is all Troy knows so he strives to teach the same lessons to his son. When Cory asks Troy why he doesn’t “like” him, Troy is adamant in his belief that he isn’t obligated to give Cory anything more than his own father gave him: “I owe a responsibility to you. ... I ain’t got to like you.” This is the saddest evidence of Troy’s inability to learn from his father’s mistakes. Troy knows that responsibility without love is painful for Cory from growing up with his father, but he also believes that life isn’t going to be easy for Cory, so he wants him to not “go through life worrying” about whether people “like” him or not. Parenting in the same style as his father is the only way Troy knows to get Cory to grow up strong and independent like himself, even if it takes throwing him out eventually. Cory’s inherited sense of responsibility manifests itself in a slightly different, maybe positive way. At the end of the play he does not have kids yet, so we can’t compare his parenting style, but the cycle continues because he ends up going to his father’s funeral, though he was originally set against it, out of responsibility. So the play ends on a note of ambiguity. Cory has a choice to make: to become himself, or become Troy. It could go either way; Rose says, he’s “Troy Maxson all over again,” but he could end up using his decision to respect his father’s memory as a stepping-stone on a path to avoiding becoming Troy, who was angry at his father until the end and only thought about his own feelings. Or he could be beginning a downward spiral toward being an unhappy prisoner of responsibility for his family like Troy was, because who is going to support Rose and Raynell now?
ReplyDeleteIn what ways does Troy work towards the “American Dream”? What is Troy’s dream?
ReplyDeleteTwo major aspects of the "American Dream" are security and independence as a member of society. Troy has partaken in the "American Dream" because he has independently worked for and achieved what he calls "safety." In the novel, he recants the tale of how he ran away from his home when he 14 years old to escape his father, whom he had deemed to be the "devil himself" (pg. 53). After this, he goes to jail for 15 years after he kills a man. At this point in his life, Troy has reached a social standing of nearly nonexistence. He has neither family nor merit of his own to give him any sort of pertinence to society. From this rock bottom, Troy is able to use his talent in baseball to become one of the greatest player in the Negro leagues. While he is ultimately declined the ability to play in the Major leagues, his journey from incarcerated nobody to great baseball player is and example of how Troy used his talent to sieze the opportunity of the "American Dream." Then, Troy works toward another version of the American Dream, the American family. Troy tells Rose how he views his life as a family man when he tells her that "when [he] found [her] and Cory and a halfway decent job... [he] was safe" (pg. 66). Troy's "safety" was something he attained through settling down, and, while it is not as glamorous as his baseball career, it is a different side of his American Dream.
1. What pattern repeats itself among generations? How are the sins and virtues of one generation played out in the next?
ReplyDeleteIn "Fences," we get to see Troy Maxson begin his life anew and culminate in assuming the role his father once did as Cory takes his place as the "younger Troy." Troy's father beats Troy after a disturbing sexual encounter catalyzing Troy's decision to leave. Cory also has a fight as his last interaction with Troy (now his father). When the Son challenges the Father, it is the Father that asserts his claim to territory, thus exiling the Son. In "Fences" Troy assumes both roles, and the play illustrates a Son's unconscious decline into the father he never wanted to be. This is a result of Troy's narcissism that consumes all the other characters, and views the world from Troy outwards. Due to Troy's past, he must struggle to accept or destroy his son's different future. None of this has anything to do with any individual character except Troy, who fights a narcissistic battle to avoid completing the father-son cycle.
1. What pattern repeats itself among generations? How are the sins and virtues of one generation played out in the next?
ReplyDeleteThe play “Fences” mention three generations: Troy’s father, Troy, and Cory. To begin, Troy’s father was a hardworking man and gave tough love to Troy. Troy described his father as the devil himself and he was obligated to work in the farm. He left his father at his coming of age after a fight, which led to his independence. This same occurrence happens to Cory as he leaves his father after a fight at his coming of age. In both generations of Cory and Troy, they both share a similar disgust in their fathers and both experience a father who selfishly takes a treasured value from each of them. For Cory it was his opportunity of playing college level football when Troy made him to work at the A and P “protecting” him from the shame he had experienced with baseball. As for Troy, it was the girl that was stolen from him when his father raped her which caused him to leave home. Both generations fail to see eye-to-eye with their fathers and under similar circumstances. However, the virtues from both fathers were protection and preparation for the real world. And as generations progress and as society changes, the hardships that each father will give to their sons will become less extreme. For instance, Troy gave Cory a little more liberty since he did play a little football and only yelled at him when he did not do his chores. Troy’s father on the other hand made him commit to work and used to beat him whenever he fooled around. Although this slight difference, they are merely the same as Rose mentions to Cory at the end of Act II, “You just like him. You got him in you good” (pg. 89). Like father like son, the sins and virtues of one generation repeat to the next.
In losing his dream of being a major-league baseball success, Troy loses his drive. He loses his faith in society, and loses faith in himself. Instead of striving to succeed, Troy views his life as a “job” or “responsibility,” and only makes an effort to achieve stability, not success. He says to Rose, “I get up Monday morning…Make my way. Find my strength to carry me through to the next Friday. That’s all I got, Rose. That’s all I got to give. I can’t give nothing else” (41). Troy is in fact living the “American Dream” of having his own house, a family, and a job. However, part of the “American Dream” is a drive to succeed and determination, and Troy has lost his.
ReplyDeleteAlthough my comment is short, I think a lot of what needed to be said about this question was already responded to in Matt Herrero's post, so I don't want to repeat.
ReplyDeleteTo what extent is Troy wrong about how American society has changed in his lifetime? To what extent is he right?
ReplyDeleteI think that Troy is wrong that American society hasn't changed. During Troy's lifetime after WWII, African Americans started to integrate into society and finally be treated as equals. Especially with his experience in baseball, there have been monumental changes. The addition of African American players with Jackie Robinson changed the landscape of baseball forever and represented changes in the culture. There may be some truth to what he says, like the limited use of black players and the small number of black players but it is impossible to ignore integration as a step towards equality. Cory has a much better chance to be a successful athlete than Troy did simply because the leagues are becoming more progressive. At this point, American society was still very far away from equality and were still not quite there. The civil rights movement had yet to change the south. However, American society was progressing and baseball was a concrete example of this. I think that Troy is unable to see this because of what baseball did to him because of his race. He will forever see baseball as a racist sport because that is his experience.
3. In what ways does Troy work towards the “American Dream”? What is Troy’s dream?
ReplyDeleteThe American Dream is the aspiration of an American citizen to live up to his or her full potential. However often times the “American Dream” also came to symbolize the epitome of a middle class lifestyle; having a family, owing your home, obtaining a good job, and having the means to provide the best life possible for your family. Troy lived by these typical ideals after he was let out of jail and met Rose. After the secret of his infidelity was revealed he said to Rose, “When I found you and Cory and a halfway decent job… I was safe” (66). Troy was safe in his bubble of responsibility to his family. He had successfully secured a job, a home, and was admired for his, “honesty, capacity for hard work, and his strength” (8). However, his realization of the “American Dream” did not coincide with his personal dreams. Troy’s ultimate aspiration in life was to be a professional baseball player, with the glory of recognition for his incredible athletic abilities. This was a dream that never seemed to leave Troy’s thoughts yet could never be realized because of discrimination against African Americans at the time. He attempted to escape his bubble that reminded Troy of his failures. He left its security and stepped “away from the pressures and problems” that are inseparable from the “American Dream” he chose to live and fell into the arms of another life and another woman (66). His true potential was never fulfilled and neither was his most basic and passionate dreams.
3. In what ways does Troy work towards the “American Dream”? What is Troy’s dream?
ReplyDeleteTroy works towards the “American Dream” in his own convoluted way. When he was growing up, and left home for the first time after the fight with his father, he was not pursuing the “American Dream”. It was only after he went to prison and learned to play baseball that he began to seek monetary success, his own home, and a kind, supportive wife to have children with. (Lyons didn’t count towards Troy’s “American Dream” because he was an accident). Once he realizes that he cannot play baseball in the major leagues, he settles for hauling trash, but this is unfulfilling to him. Although in some way he is pulling himself up by his bootstraps and fulfilling a part of the “American Dream”, he also wants the freedom that comes with it, which led him to have the affair with Alberta. In this sense he embodies part of the greed and constant want for more that has become engrained in American society. Troy’s dream is to have it all: the better job driving the truck, a loving wife, a mistress, a protected home, and children who won’t make the same mistakes as he did. In some ways Troy’s dream was fulfilled, but in doing so he force those who were a part of his dream to resent him.
In regard to the “American Dream” in the 1980s, the African Americans’ was a different imaginary vision than the ones previously explored in class. Troy toys with the idea of immortality, constantly threatening his make-believe enemy—“Death.” In his version of the American Dream, Troy follows his egotistical path of destruction, leaving an unsatisfied wife, an empty football helmet, and the loss of his “friend” Bono in his wake. The African American Dream, represented by Troy in this play, mainly consists of self-empowerment, even at the detriment of others. Throughout this play, Troy chooses only to see what he wants to see. Samuel French clearly illustrates this in Act I, Scene 3 in a conversation between Rose and Troy. In this confrontation, Troy reveals that he thinks extremely high of himself, with unhealthy hubris, that his view of himself is muddled; while, on the other hand, Rose, a removed observer, brings Troy back reality. Rose states, “Troy, why don’t you admit you was too old to play in the major leagues?”; in response, Troy agitatedly replies “What do you mean too old? Don’t come telling me I was too old. I just wasn’t the right color”(40). Troy believes this because he wants to believe it. He constantly dreams in the past; in his deluded logic, he believes this is what will keep him from dying—his ultimate goal. He has found no affection or satisfaction in his attempt at the “white” American Dream—a home with a fence, a caring wife, a couple of hard working sons, and a consistent job. To the previous statement, Troy would probably respond, in coarser English, “why the hell do I need affection?” He references his father and his inability to love and takes on this brashness as a responsibility; brashness, to him at least, being in the job description of being a father and an American. Beyond the boundaries of family life, as he chases his American Dream, Troy even destroys his friendship with Bono. When promoted, he lets go of his ties with his garbage-carrying comrade. His relationship with the most substance is with a morbid, imaginary, and intangible idea—Death. Troy dreams that the world revolves around him and time is only measured by his watch.
ReplyDeleteONE...
ReplyDelete...connecting thread between Troy and his father--and likely Cory in 20 years, if Troy does not allow him more room than Troy's father did to Troy--is that they are both hedonists. Troy's father had that…awkward…interaction with Troy's female interest, and Troy perpetuates this 'familial tradition' by pursuing Alberta in a different but equally inappropriate way. I have sympathy for Troy, however. He doesn't know any different. He is not cultured, let alone well-read, and no opportunity was provided for him by his father, so it was very unlikely that he would be able to break from that mould given his circumstances. He wants the best for Cory, stating that "[i]t's [his] responsibility…A man got to take care of his family," but has a poor point (of comparison) and no proper parallel for appropriate parenting (per se).
Allow me a small digression…if Troy wasn't shown any better as a kid, and was not allowed an opportunity to educate himself, and because he doesn't know any better, perpetuates that which was given him by his father…then isn't there no hope for Cory or future generations? It's an interesting general question. Perhaps there needs to be an intervention from the outside, something with more impact that Rose had on Troy. Maybe the Marin-corporal-Cory has a chance to educate his kids because he won't want to give up his quest that was curtailed by Troy. …or maybe there is no hope. Maybe we're all lucky the play ended when it did.
In what ways does Troy work towards the “American Dream”? What is Troy’s dream?
ReplyDeleteIn some ways, Troy has achieved the "American Dream", but in other ways, he has not. He has a family that lives together at home, he is married, he is hard-working, and he fathers a child. Although these are all things that one would view as important, they are often overshadowed by other aspects of his life. Troy struggles with honesty, as he has an outside relationship with another woman. He is also intimidated by the effect whites could possibly have on Cory's athletic aspirations, which lead him to discouraging Cory from playing football.
Cory and Troy have a "tough-love" type of relationship. All Cory wants is support from his father, but Troy is constantly scolding Cory.
At one point, Cory honestly asks Troy, "How come you ain't never liked me?" (38) Troy responds with a never-ending rant which basically tells Cory that there is not a law that says he must love him. He says that as long as he is allowing Cory to sleep in his house, and as long as he is provided with food, he should not complain.
So, yes, when looking at how Troy has turned his life around and is now able to support a family, he has indeed achieved the "American Dream". But when looking at Troy and Cory's unhealthy relationship, it is easy to conclude that there is a present unhappiness which is not part of the "American Dream". Troy secretly wants a healthy relationship with his wife (Rose), and Cory, but throughout the story there is something that is preventing this from happening.
JB posting Alexi's comment:
ReplyDeleteIn what ways does Troy work towards the "American Dream"? What is Troys dream?
Troy works towards the American dream by being successful in his work, house and family and he works towards being accepted into the surrounding society. He works towards this by insisting to his boss that he get paid more after working there for so long. Troy receives the job position that is equal to that of the whites and in that situation he feel a sense of success as well as cocky-ness. Troy also has built himself a nice house, as well as a fence around the front yard. He, like the whites, live in a nice home and are self-supportive. Troy works very hard at his job as well as with his building to make up for his lack of baseball career. Troy was never allowed into the Major Leagues, which he believes is because he is black. He is striving for equality in other parts of his life to compensate for his failure.
--Alexi
1. What pattern repeats itself among generations? How are the sins and virtues of one generation played out in the next?
ReplyDeleteDespite Troy and Cory working to be different from each other, the end result appears to be the exact opposite of their intentions. First, there is the obvious investment in sports issue. Troy had been a big baseball player, and didn’t want his son to fall into the same trap. But by trying to prevent Cory from playing football, he unconsciously made Cory want it more. Even though Troy may have had some good intentions by not wanting Cory to fail because of his color, he accidently made that happen earlier when he refuses to let Cory play. Also, throughout the play, Troy keeps taunting death and thinking that death is always right around the corner trying to get him. When Cory joins the Marines, he sets up that same fight to stay away from death for the obvious reason of him dealing with deadly weapons on a daily basis. In spite of Troy's best efforts to prevent Cory from becoming like him, Troy ironically pushes Cory to be more similar to himself than either of them wished for.
-Adam
What pattern repeats itself among generations? How are the sins and virtues of one generation played out in the next?
ReplyDeleteAs often happens with children and the people who raise them, Cory and Troy are similar to one another despite the fact they both want and strive to be different. Troy is hardworking despite his almost bitter outlook on life, and he provides for his family by putting in a lot of time and effort. Cory emulates this dedicated behavior, but instead of work, Cory puts his efforts towards football. Because Troy was unable to become a professional baseball player because of the color of his skin, he was emotionally scarred and therefore distrusts the way sports are managed in the big leagues. He doesn’t want Cory to live through the same pain he did, so he forbids Cory from playing football, and thereby sentences Cory to a life in the work force. Troy’s unhappiness with the way his life played out leads to his want to protect Cory, but by forcing his son to stop playing football, he puts Cory through the same pain he experienced.
However, it also happens often where children try to grow up and do the exact opposite of their parents. This is also true with Troy and Cory. Where Troy is quick to judge and to criticize society and racial prejudices, Cory tries to see the positive and points out numerous examples in sports where what his father says isn’t true. Troy is jaded and resentful of all he wasn’t able to do in his life, and despite that constant negative influence, Cory still believes there is room for change and that the world is slowly changing around them. Troy refuses to see this reality because he is so blinded by his past experiences, and in this way Cory and Troy are extremely different.
hi
ReplyDelete